COME ALONG QUIETLY

 

Edgar Poe’s take on quietude in this passage from late 1847 is almost identical with Ron Silliman’s general use of the term:

 “It is often said, inconsiderately, that very original writers always fail in popularity–that such and such persons are too original to be comprehended by the mass. “Too peculiar,” should be the phrase, “too idiosyncratic.” It is, in fact, the excitable, undisciplined and child-like popular mind which most keenly feels the original. The criticism of the conservatives, of the hackneys, of the cultivated old clergymen of the North American Review, is precisely the criticism which condemns and alone condemns it. “It becometh not a divine,” saith Lord Coke, “to be of a fiery and salamandrine spirit.” Their conscience allowing them to move nothing themselves, these dignitaries have a holy horror of being moved. “Give us quietude,” they say. Opening their mouths with proper caution, they sigh forth the word “Repose.” And this is, indeed, the one thing they should be permitted to enjoy, if only upon the Christian principle of give and take.”   —Poe (reviewing Hawthorne)

Silliman would never agree with Poe’s idea that “the popular mind most keenly feels the original” since Silliman’s avant-garde poetry stars are anything but popular.  But Silliman would appreciate Poe’s whack at the “cultivated old clergymen” and their “repose.”

Poe qualified his original praise of Hawthorne (1842) when he reviewed the Salem author again, in 1847.  It’s pretty obvious why Poe downgrades Hawthorne from an imaginative original in 1842 to a merely fanciful one in 1847:  Hawthorne was getting in too deep with the Transcendentalists.  He was renting from Mr. EmersonPoe pleads with Hawthorne at the end of his piece: mend [your] pen, [Mr. Hawthorne!] get a bottle of visible ink, come out from the Old Manse, cut Mr. Alcott, hang (if possible) the editor of “The Dial,” and throw out of the window to the pigs all his odd numbers of “The North American Review.” [!!]

Should Poe have changed his mind on Hawthorne just because Hawthorne had become friends with Emerson?  The Transcendalists hurt Poe into Criticism, so I say: why not?   The genius of Poe can love while it is hating, and it’s a pleasure to observe how Poe’s mind siezes on new insights as it ruefully revises in the 1847 article.

It might be worthwhile to take a peek at what Poe has to say regarding this “Quietude” business, since Poe did in fact originate the designation Silliman has for some time leaned on, and Seth Abramson is currently taking great pains to wrestle to the ground.

According to Poe, the novelty of a work is multi-dimensional, but quietude is simpler—either a work calms or agitates.  But it is possible, Poe contends, for a work to have both “repose” and originality, and this is what he praised in Hawthorne.

Originality in fiction, according to Poe, needs to aim at a middle ground above the merely “peculiar,” and below that “metaphysical originality”—reserved for science; the ‘higher’ type of originality will merely irritate the reader of fiction—who is looking for pleasure, not instruction.

As usual, Poe divides poetry from truth.  He also makes a case for literary talent as a quality worthy by itself and in itself and to be demonstrated, first, in a “rhymed composition which can be perused in under an hour” and owes its power to “rhythm,” and, secondly, in a work of short fiction naturally unshackled by that which contributes to beauty—the artificiality of rhythm.

Most moderns consider this all too neat and tidy, of course, but Poe’s course has the advantage of leaving a wider field for invention, creativity, energy, experiment and effort—precisely because he establishes the ‘neat and tidy’ in the beginning, and gets it out of the way.  No matter how rough-edged and complex we consider ourselves, the ‘neat and tidy’ eventually comes around to bite us.  Our metaphysics longs for smoothness at last. 

For instance, look at Seth Abramson.  He doesn’t begin where Poe begins.  Abramson stakes out his analysis this way: he chops the last 100 years of poetry into two tropes: transcendent (language as signifier) and immanent (language as signified).  But why should a writer ever consistenly divide himself, or limit himself, thus, especially since language cannot be interesting unless it do both at once, pretty much all the time?  An artificial division such as this one by Abramson cannot stand, without making a mockery of poetry, and if poetry over the last 100 years is a mockery in many respects, the public having totally deserted it, so much greater the urgency to bring sanity back all clean and such, and easy to demonstrate and see. (“get a bottle of visible ink“—Poe to Hawthorne in 1847)

Poe asks only for originality in a rhymed composition (unless you want to go for the short fiction).  He doesn’t care if it is transcendent or immanent in its use of language, or what manifesto or tribe, or agenda, or school, or what theory attend it.  Rhyme, and if you can’t rhyme, you’re doing it wrong.  You start with one or two simple rules, the simpler the better, and let genius make all the rules after that.

45 Comments

  1. Seth said,

    July 21, 2010 at 4:11 am

    Thomas, you are so intellectually dishonest it’s breathtaking (an observation which will no doubt immediately prompt another puerile, lightly-sourced interjection by Cordle that _I’m_ the one who’s intellectually dishonest — consider Cordle’s continued existence and relevance on the internet duly [albeit facetiously] noted).

    In my essays I _never_ advise that a writer “choose” between transcendent and immanent meaning — in fact, Thomas, I echo what you’ve said here precisely, so making me your straw man is ridiculous. The most effective writing consciously and aggressively (not merely as some passive operation of language) _conjoins_ the transcendent and the immanent. I’ve said that on my blog and elsewhere. Multiple times. LangPo faltered, as I wrote multiple times, because it attempted to achieve “pure immanence,” which is possible with the willful suspension of disbelief (or thought) of the reader but is ineffectual as poetry, ultimately. We agree on this. That there are writers out there who have tried to achieve a purely transcendent poetry is also indisputable–as is the fact that any such poetry is tepid and, again, ineffectual. What I did was say that the “SoQ” is rightly and easily pigeon-holed, by Silliman, if what he’s talking about is “pure transcendent” poetry.

    To the extent you are claiming (as your discourse is uncommonly incoherent these days) that all language is _always_ effectively transcendent and effectively immanent at once (note “effectively,” i.e. as in “effectual”), either a) you don’t understand the terms “transcendent” and “immanent,” or b) you are presuming a reader who ignores altogether the countless indications a poem (and by extension its author) makes as to how s/he “wants” the poem to be read. Even if we say language _always_ possesses the capability for being read transcendently and immanently (i.e. both), there is no doubt some poems better and/or more effectively and/or more consciously make use of language’s immanence or transcendence.

    Thomas, stop mentioning me on your stupid blog if you don’t plan to actually read anything I write but just use me as some sort of rhetorical punching bag. You think I’m a dick, okay, that’s cool by me — I still sleep at night, as the feeling’s mutual and you’re the sort of charlatan I’m okay with having think me a dick (it lets me know I’m on the right track ethically, morally, intellectually, &c). So having settled that, there’s no need for you to waste the time of your three readers by obsessing over me and/or my blog, especially when (clearly) you just skim it — poorly — anyway. Same goes for Cordle.

    I’m certain you two can play out your deep-seeded off-line psychological issues without my continued involvement. –S.

    • thomasbrady said,

      July 21, 2010 at 11:34 am

      Seth,

      Thanks for clarifying. I decided to take a look at Poe’s review of Hawthorne—one of the sources of ‘quietude,’ which has found its way into Ron’s vocabulary. I did sort of ‘use’ you in my piece because you have been very ambitious recently in taking on the ‘school of quietude’ trope and I’ve appreciated what you’ve done, but to expect me to use every last nuance of all that you’ve written on the subject seems to slide over into vanity on your part. The post wasn’t about you, alone. I select and focus on what I think is most important. OK, perhaps you are pedantic, sometimes, but I have not, and would never call you, “a dick;” good lord, man, I’m not at all like that.

      Thanks again, for your input. I’ll see you around, I’m sure.

      Tom

      • Seth said,

        July 21, 2010 at 3:18 pm

        Tom,

        What I just don’t get is why you do seem to go out of your way to make me look like an idiot — don’t you think I do a good enough job of that by _myself_? I’m long-winded, sometimes pedantic, too often cross over esoteric nonsense (at least online), apparently have trouble writing what I mean (I met someone recently in person who almost immediately accused me of supporting “the MFA industrial complex,” which is a grave misreading of where I stand on the MFA), &c &c — it seems like overkill to mention me in so many of your posts when, at base, you and I agree on A LOT. If anything, I should be linking to your posts and you to mine; we may not see eye to eye on twentieth century aesthetics — i.e., the history of it all — but we’re both interested in the question generally, we both think Ron has some ‘splainin to do, and so on. Even as to MFA programs — whatever your belief, we both believe no young writer a) should feel like they “have” to attend an MFA, b) should feel like they will automatically benefit from an MFA (some do not), or c) should attend an unfunded MFA and therefore go into debt for an unmarketable degree. The difference is that I’m trying to do what little I can to influence events from the inside — in the same way I’d love to participate in the conversation over Ron’s “SoQ” not by spitballing from the back of the class but interacting with the man directly.

        In any case, if you don’t despise me, act like it. Obviously I wouldn’t be one of your three (now two) readers if I didn’t think that *you* sometimes make some interesting observations.

        S.

  2. Franz Bonkers said,

    July 21, 2010 at 6:41 am

    Yeah, stop fucking mentioning whatsisname on yer two-bit pony phony portion of cyberville; or else, you cunt!!

    How fucking dare you! How fucking dare you suggest that immanence and transendance are linked via the semiotic referents inherent in the legaleeze of spot-ball noshing with the luminous qualities exhibited in the aesthetic kinship of reading, quoting the same philosophers, attending the same conferences, or sharing the same geopolitical purview per se, as someone else who writes poetry in a manner that I do not fucking like you cunt!

    Do not constitute my aesthetic kinship as being financially, socially, or culturally isolated to the same degree, or in the same way, as someone else does, because if you fucking do, I will send in the soporific squad and put you to fucking sleep you scumbag!!

    Do not, either or, de facto in redias mea culpa foclo fuck-off, establish any fucking aesthetic kinship with Time, Space or the Immance of It All, at any time before the end of whatever scatalogical and sloppy sociological scholarship that is dependent upon what poets other than me, fucking say to you, you twat, or else, (as is so often the case with the chatty post-avant wankers) I will start ejecting myself on to where you live online, on your fucking blog, shitting on what you believe, who you have slept with, the Theory you use as Theory merely for cover of the false-flag reactionary bollocks historicism you paint as being ergo et tu, to the extent that any fucking poetical discussion, is rendered Theory-less (including semiotics) and by its very fucking definition, transcends (no pun intended) the mundane circumstance of whatever it is making you talk shite, pal.

    The epistimology and taxonomy of hereforeto, thereof, as, like, fucking tellin yer Brady! I’m fucking tellin yer yer cunt, pack it in right fucking now, or else I’ll be sending you a rejoinder that explicitly states, in the Village of Poetry, there’s to be no messin about with the essential SoQ of IOU, up yours and how fucking dare you. How fucking dare you you gutter-sleaze wank-off.

    • Seth said,

      July 21, 2010 at 3:22 pm

      This is pretty good.

      I wasn’t even a tenth as annoyed as all that, but at least it shows someone read my original post on TSE.

      Or at least highlighted it and ran it through BabelFish or something…

      S.

  3. chuck.godwin said,

    July 21, 2010 at 2:38 pm

    This is surreal. If Abramson was including me in his “there’s no need for you to waste the time of your three readers by obsessing over me” comment, I just wanna let you know, its now two.
    Have a good one, or two.

    • thomasbrady said,

      July 21, 2010 at 3:33 pm

      chuck,

      my “stupid blog” with “three, no, two readers” wishes you well,

      tom

  4. Al Cordle said,

    July 21, 2010 at 5:05 pm

    Hi Seth. Please feel free to call me Al. Did my previous interjection bother you so much that you had to refer to it in a weird diatribe sandwiched in a weird diatribe directed at Tom?

    I don’t think you’re intellectually dishonest; you’re selectively dishonest. Most people are though.

  5. Seth said,

    July 21, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    Al–

    All right, so I’ll be selectively honest with you and say that what really bothered me — what still bothers me — is that I supported, in principle, much of the work you did with Foetry.com, and yet the second I decided to attend the IWW you presumed I’d sold my soul and compromised my ethics. I attended HLS and became a public defender, I’m attending an academic doctoral program as someone who’s an artist at heart, I’ve tried to take on unfunded MFA programs and institution-driven MFA discourse by creating a ranking system that highlights what young writers *actually* want and need in an MFA — i.e., I’ve a long history of entering “into” institutions and remaining precisely the person I was beforehand. So I resented your several attempts, in 2007, to paint me as some kind of turncoat. Anyone who knew me in Iowa City would tell you I marched — in every sense — to my own drummer there. I wasn’t interested in networking, I wanted the time to write. I don’t know why this stuck in my craw — most things that happen online I forget altogether in less than 12 hours. But the day I realized that one of the net’s foremost crusaders for procedural justice was willing to cannibalize a fellow traveler over some hip-shot generalizing about what every single person who lives in Iowa City and attends the IWW “must” be like — well, that was a blow. Seriously. Because it was the day I realized all your efforts were doomed to fail. You can’t build a movement by devouring your young.

    And whether you consider this note “weird” or not I know you know what I’m talking about.

    S.

  6. Al Cordle said,

    July 21, 2010 at 10:22 pm

    Hey Seth — that’s what I _guessed_ your comments really meant, but the fact is — that’s not what you said the first time around.

    I don’t think you’re a turncoat at all, but I do think your attack on the BAP series and silence about the IWW were pretty transparent. You couldn’t go after them or anyone there, because you wanted to attend so badly.

    I have lots of very close friends who attended IWW and one acquaintance who teaches there, all of whom I respect, so I think it’s you who are generalizing. BTW, Foetry wasn’t a failure, though the few who’ve continued to cheat have more often than not had some sort of association with IWW. It’s an institutional problem.

    I’m sure you’re a nice enough guy, unique, an artist, and all that, but I really think you let your desire for perceived prestige of the IWW affect your judgment. I hope it was a good experience though.

    Have you had a chance to take a class with Ron Wallace? I’ve never met him, but he was my wife’s first poetry prof., I think. She really speaks highly of him.

    Take care of yourself,
    Al

    • Seth said,

      July 22, 2010 at 2:21 am

      Al,

      The reason I went to the IWW was that it was — is — the only fully-funded entirely-studio program in the United States, and I was in $125,000 worth of debt when I applied. At Iowa no one’s looking over your shoulder, no one’s setting a program for you. No grades, no attendance, nothing but workshop second year, a large community you can lose yourself in (or get lost in) if you want to. It was a popular saying when I was there (or perhaps it just seemed so to me) that there *is* no MFA program in Iowa City — which is intended as a compliment. There’s no better program in America for a 30 year-old (which is what I was at the time) to be in if/when he’s already published a bit and needs some time to think and to read and to interact (for the first time in his life) with a large community of passionate, talented people. And, too, if he’s running from his past — which I was, but I don’t want/need to say anything more about that.

      But I’ll tell you it was an incredibly hard decision — I was set on attending University of Massachusetts at Amherst, and frankly it floored everyone I talked to that I wasn’t dead-set on Iowa from the beginning. But I wasn’t. But then I realized — because of the personal stuff I mentioned — that I wanted and needed to leave New England for the first time in my life (at least, I mean, on an extended basis). Michigan wouldn’t/couldn’t give me the freedom Iowa would (and did), so it was Iowa. But Jorie was long gone by the time I got there, and (not that this matters, I just mention it) I never even workshopped with her husband. I workshopped with visiting faculty from Sarah Lawrence, UMass, and Houston for my first three semesters, and then with Cole Swensen — who’s an amazing teacher and person and, as far as I know, has never been any part of your Iowa criticism.

      I’m not sure what kind of stand you wanted me to take — I’ve so publicly campaigned against cronyism (to the point where David Lehman and his wife are *still* obsessed with me, four years from my last BAP post) that it goes without saying it’s as odious when it’s Iowa-based as when it’s Lehman-based. While I was in IC I never once compromised my principles — and did what I could, as I always do, to discuss those principles with my classmates. Frankly most of the Iowa cronyism happens *after* one graduates, so my classmates were blameless. They were mostly kids, anyway — and I mean that fondly. They’d done nothing wrong except attend an MFA program, which is no crime. But if anyone ever asked me or wanted me to say I opposed *every* variety of cronyism — *any* aesthetic judgment based on something other than art — I did so. I’ve made many enemies because of that stance, so to make it sound like I took the easy path… well, if I took such an easy path, I don’t think so many people would call me things like (as one CHE thread recently did) “controversial.” I wouldn’t have multiple internet stalkers, death threats, blacklists… all of which I’ve faced.

      I agree Foetry was not a failure — what I’m saying is that for a movement whose aim is justice to survive, it has to be compassionate as well as stern. You weren’t very compassionate to me, and frankly there were some you tarred through Foetry who probably didn’t deserve it, and it seemed the movement was slow to admit its (occasional) mistakes. But do I think it — and your — heart was in the right place? Absolutely. And a lot of good was done. Frankly I wish you hadn’t shuttered the website. As for my BAP criticism, I took it down from TSE for the simple reason that a) everyone had read it who was going to, and more importantly b) it was distracting me from writing and from participating in the poetry community as a poet — I don’t mean as a networker (I’m a damn shitty networker, as should be evident to everyone), but as an actual artist. People were viewing me as an activist, not a writer. Now I do both: MFA-related activism, and poetry. I think I’ve struck a balance. I’m guessing you’ve found a similar balance in your own life.

      Ron Wallace is as nice a human being as has ever walked the earth. He’s wonderful. He doesn’t teach anymore, but he mentors many young writers writing theses. I wish I’d had the chance to study with him. I find that the best teachers are those strong in character as well as vision.

      Take care,
      Seth

      • Seth said,

        July 22, 2010 at 2:23 am

        P.S. I meant to mention that my reason for preferring UMass up until the last moment was that I wanted to stay close to my family. I was born and raised in MA and most of my family still lives there.

      • Al Cordle said,

        July 23, 2010 at 12:00 am

        Seth, thank you for this long, thoughtful reply. There’s hope for us yet! I’ll write back (maybe privately) soon.

  7. The Noochie-Coochie Man said,

    July 21, 2010 at 11:38 pm

    Was Mencken a quietist? Don’t know, but he was great.
    Here’s an interview with him (in parts numbering eight).

  8. Franz Bonkers said,

    July 22, 2010 at 3:07 am

  9. thomasbrady said,

    July 22, 2010 at 9:52 pm

    Cole Swenson, judge, knew Jennifer Dick, Georgia Series winner in 2003, according to Foetry.com. I can’t understand her poetry, either. I’m not sure which is worse…

    • Al Cordle said,

      July 22, 2010 at 11:58 pm

      After Seth’s very cordial reply to me, I’d hoped no one would bring this up. Oh well. I do recall that one of Swensen’s Georgia picks had previously rented an apartment to her in France. I can’t remember if it was Dick or one of the others in that round.

      • thomasbrady said,

        July 23, 2010 at 2:23 am

        Yea, I hated to bring it up, but I hope the thaw continues, as Seth’s heart seems to be in the right place.

        To err is human, to forgive, divine…

  10. Franz Bonkers said,

    July 23, 2010 at 6:36 am

    22 Jul 2010, 8:36PM. deadgod wrote:

    Totalitarian pseudo-solutions, but also a preference over the sloppiness of actual Liberal politicians and policies. – hence, for the instance on this thread, Borges’s tininess of voice in the face of actual fascistic state-terror in Argentina.

    deadgod

    ~

    It is always better to talk and remember what it is we are here for in the first place. To have lovely pleasant lives, civilized conversation, brilliant theoretical debates in an open, ungated forum where the real luvvies, who do perform in the dog’s tail competition of cynosure drawing you to naturally appear the most boring person speaking and uncaring who thinks what, because Emerson, the plankton robotic scissor-sister conspiring with the Eliots and Magdalenas of oh gosh you art from heaven, arranging be you light, they will be done above as below, Sicut in altitudine et tu profundis be thy game, thy realm will come, thy will is done, on earth at it is in Heaven, everyone?

    This is one of the very few ungated online forums for genuinely free and open poetry and poetics-workshop-session debates, isn’t it Seth?

    Sure it’s all Kenny J and Kenny G, isn’t it S.A, Poet in Res of the Chair, fanny doing all the work, as a geezer from Ilford said, Kenny fackin G you come this shit tis history between the premier luvvies in F O spells nah ye cont, tis ye middlin agin in tha Jackie K dworbs of diddle dee die, Rhymeland expects, gotta run to the shed, what’s ten thousand souljahs in Am Po-biz gonna sing, but of ’em poet-sleb selves being fackin interesting you fecking cont, Brady G. Sure, tis all gee whizz Thom and Seth, Al and notevensuperficial you anonymous horrible facist scumbags – faaakkk aawwwwfffff ye feckers and drop down ya’ll and moi, bcuz … have a guess, go on.

    Prayer.

  11. Franz Bonkers said,

    July 23, 2010 at 6:42 am

    Sorry guys, you were spared the full Seth Abramson size mega splurge coz the site-glitch is making sure I only appear in few lines.

    Probaly a good thing.

    C’mon R American Poets

    Franz Wong.

  12. Brenda said,

    July 23, 2010 at 10:41 pm

    I mean, really now.

    Seth Abramson sounds incredibly emotionally unstable, quick to anger, and consumed with what he sounds like he thinks is the PRESTIGE of being an “artist,” “poet,” & “scholar,” and, for heaven’s sake, a professional fucking student.

    All of this is incredibly childish, EXCEPT for the near-illegal scams of poetry contests in America (which is unique across the globe, actually) and that’s why I follow the many morphings of Foetry and its participants and allies.

    But, I mean, REALLY now…you guys probably need to get out more and see how the world suffers and seethes beyond the spectacular insularity of the poetry worlds that you are so submerged.

    On his “school of quietude” fake-scholarly screed (God, it was so self-serving, over-determined in its reaching for classical grounding, and dissertationesey), Seth Abramsom made TRIPLY sure to list his “bona fides” first…what an ARROGANT, BRAGGING ***TOOL***–as if Ron Silliman or anyone cares that anyone has a thousand law degrees, MFAs, and PhDs, and would therefore take his commentary more or less seriously! AHhahahahahahah!

    Seth, you still come off like a fucking JERK who is QUICK TO ANGER and OVERLY CONCERNED with your already HORRIBLE reputation online and offline.

    Al and Thomas, etc, are incredibly mischievous and even devious tricksters…

    …but they never, ever sound like complete arrogant jerks with a curious lack of knowledge as to how they REALLY sound!

    They sound like genuine outsiders who don’t really want to be ADORED by some supposed POETRY ELITES.

    But, YOU, braggart: your body would deplete itself of all meta-semen in a million-year-long orgasm if JORIE (with whom your fucking ass is so obviously on a first name basis) gave up her goddamn Boylston Professorship at Harvard for you, yes, for YOU, YOU, YOU, with your law degree, MFA, PhD, and DD (doctorate in being a DICK). Al might not think you are a dick but I DO AND MANY OTHERS THINK DO TOO.

    SETH, do you REALLY know what people are saying about you who went to school with you? God, they all HATE you!

    God, I mean REALLY: that’s what you want with all your goddamn degrees: you want an academic position, power, prestige and a place to keep talking and talking and CONTROLLING. You want to fucking CONTROL.

    Most people in poetry worlds think you are TOXIC!

    Don’t you fucking GET IT!

    Even those of us who agree with some of what you say, SETH, find you INCREDIBLY arrogant, borish, angry for no reason, entitled, and given to sycophancy, pedancy, and an incredible capacity to say TOO MUCH about VERY LITTLE.

    You also have a habit of ATTACKING people who approach you innocently without any attempt to harm you.

    Some people are going to be nice to you.

    But I’m not.

    You’re a complete DICK and those fucked up poetry worlds with all these deceitful, gaming, scamming, entitled, privileged, whining people, be they mainstream, experimental or who cares what–all those fucked up poetry worlds DESERVE YOU!

  13. Seth said,

    July 24, 2010 at 12:30 am

    Hi Brenda,

    I’m sorry you feel that way. I wish you the best.

    Be well,

    Seth

  14. July 24, 2010 at 2:25 am

    Manic diatribe above notwithstanding, Seth Abramson is, and always has been, one of the ‘good guys’. You’d think that anyone would be proud to call him a friend.

  15. Brenda said,

    July 24, 2010 at 4:29 am

    Seth is NOT one of the good guys to me and many others. When one’s reputation is MIXED, then you become toxic even to those that are interested in listening/hiring/supporting. Seth has NOT been kind or welcoming to many people (including in the comments sections on his blog and at conferences) and his behavior has truly sullied his standing online and offline. There’s no undoing it, Seth, no matter how meek your arrogant self *acts* now. I’m so glad I finally spoke out against this awful man and I encourage everyone to speak out against him and spread the word.

  16. Seth said,

    July 24, 2010 at 5:32 am

    Hi Brenda,

    I can understand you’re angry, and I’m sure I’ve done or said things which in your view would justify that. My assumption is by no means that you’re acting in bad faith. But I’ve never before been accused of being unkind to another poet in person, and I’ve only attended one poetry-related conference in my entire life (AWP Chicago), so if you get a chance if you could e-mail me at sethabramson@yahoo.com and tell me what I did “at conferences” I’d appreciate it — I’m serious about this; I will try to make amends to anyone I may have been rude to in a face-to-face conversation. That’s not my style or how I was raised. As to interactions online, I know as well as anyone how easy it is to hate — or be hated — from a distance. Motivations can seem inscrutable, peccadilloes can be easily misread, passions can be misinterpreted. Like you, like anyone, what I really care about are the causes I fight for and the people I know and care about in “real time.” No one I know — I mean actually know — would say the things you’ve said, they’d probably find them humorous. But as you don’t know me at all, I can understand that things I’ve said online have often sent an impression that doesn’t reflect me well — I’m wholly aware of that and I blame myself, not you. And I always have.

    Changing is hard; over the years I’ve made an effort, but it’s a constant struggle. I wasn’t raised with the internet (I’m in my mid-30s, and first went online in college, and the internet was in its nascent stages then) and it’s still not I medium I handle well — that’s obvious. I tend to write online the same way I would in a formal paper — and I don’t seem to be able to train myself out of that “old-person/pre-internet” habit. So when I read someone saying, hey, this guy’s writing style makes him sound arrogant as hell, he can’t seem to ever be brief, he seems to get his dander up mighty quick, and so on, my response (and I was saying this to a friend on the phone just a few hours ago) is to really feel like I bring these criticisms on myself. There are people, I mean friends of mine, who’d like to come on this blog and argue with things you’ve said, and again my response would be, don’t bother, as a) I do bring much of this on myself, though I don’t intend to, and b) I really only care about what people who actually know me think of the person I am. If you believe I’m motivated by “prestige,” or “power,” or “control,” then I rest a little easier — as whether or not you’re posting under a pseudonym, I can safely conclude you’re not someone who knows me in real time. No one who knows me would ever conclude these things — I know that without a moment of doubt. I just don’t have those motivations in me — literally, it’s foreign to me.

    I’d only ask that you not spread falsehoods — there’s a lot of unpleasant things that can be said about me without resorting to made-up things (believe me, I know it, re: things that can be said about positions I’ve taken online, and unpopular beliefs I have, and motivations of mine which can to some seem fairly arcane; and the only person more nauseated by my lawyerly writing style than you is me — I haven’t ever been able to train myself out of it and it more or less sickens me to see it on the page — think of me as being like a smoker who’s become nauseated by nicotine but can’t quit).

    That said, in two years I never had a negative encounter with anyone at Iowa that I can recall, and I’m certain I was never less than nice to anyone — that’s just my way. Sometimes I can be shy, or inadvertently anti-social (I was raised a loner); but cruel, or mean, or arrogant? That’s not in me, though online I’m sure I’ve sent those signals when the intent behind my words — the tone, the motivation, the aim, the passion — laid elsewhere. So again, I’m sure I’ve said or done things that caused me to deserve what you wrote, as I’ve made many stupid mistakes in my life — I make them almost every day — and no one beats themselves up more over them than me. I’m not saying that for sympathy, as I don’t ask for deserve anyone’s, I’m saying it because I tend to say whatever I’m thinking. My least favorite thing in the world is disingenuousness — so when I run at the mouth it’s often because I’m trying to cram everything I feel and believe into a single comment.

    Anyway, I stand by all my offline actions — I like people, I care about people, I can’t imagine what malfeasances you’re speaking of but if you e-mail me, as I said, I’ll try to right them.

    Separate note: I do think you may have misunderstand my position on some things, likely because I often express myself terribly — there’s a difference between being articulate and being rhetorically effective, I know it, and there’s a difference between being honest (as I try to be in everything I write, which doesn’t make everything I write valuable or correct or coherent or productive, I know) and actually saying what you mean in a way anyone reading would actually understand. I know that too. But I want to say clearly: Like Ashbery, I believe there is no actual prestige to be had in poetry. I have militantly fought for years against young people choosing MFA programs based on “prestige” (i.e. pedigree) which is why I tried to formulate a ranking system based on factors that actually matter and actually help real people (in the same way I helped real people when I was a public defender for seven years) — funding, class size, program duration, curriculum type, word-of-mouth re: faculty and student satisfaction, and so on. Prestige (excuse my language) can blow me — I went where I went for law school because it was near my family, had a great reputation for trial advocacy and clinical programs, and had a stellar loan forgiveness program which I knew I would desperately need. Then I became a public defender. Rock-bottom of the legal profession, ask anyone. And I loved it — it meant the world to me to do that work. I then (after years in the law) went to Iowa City for the reasons I mentioned above to Al. So, to repeat: No one should ever go into poetry for any perceived glory, or hope of glory, or prestige, or any of that nonsense. And it’s not about sex, drugs, parties, networking, or any of that BS either. It’s the writing that matters, period.

    All I want — besides fighting for better funding for MFA students — is to write the poetry I like to write and at least have a chance to share it with others through publication (of whatever kind; I am not someone who networks to find an audience — I lick stamps and send out my work, that’s what I believe in, not connections). I don’t judge people based on much else but their character, one reason my friends are so different from one another. But they always have that in common: they’re honest, decent, progressive, and they’re good to people. If I was a social climber I wouldn’t have had my first action online, years ago, when I started my blog, be to make an enemy of the most powerful poetry anthologist of our times. I did that because I believed the man to be corrupt — that’s what I care about, and damn the consequences. I know ranking MFAs for the purpose of inducing programs to better fund their students will make me enemies among those individuals who (paradoxically) care about “prestige” much more than me, and so will get worked up when their program isn’t ranked where they want, and not see it as a “prompt” to make that program better serve its students. But as much as it hurts me emotionally — because I detest the feeling of being hated, and I’ve never believed that cruel and stupid adage, “any publicity is good publicity” — I keep doing it because, misguided or not, I really do believe it’s a cause worth fighting for. And then I get too worked up about it, and I love to argue (always have since I was a kid), and so sometimes I cross a line I almost immediately feel like crap for having crossed — knowing that in “real time” it’s not a line I ever would have allowed myself to cross.

    In any case, I absolutely respect your right to think, and say, whatever you want about me. Again, I just ask that you not make anything up. I give folks more than enough ammunition against me as it is, I’m sure you’d agree.

    Be well,
    Seth

    P.S. Gary, thanks for the kind words. They mean a great deal to me.

  17. thomasbrady said,

    July 24, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    I have no idea who Brenda is, but I’m glad she spoke, (not because she slammed you, Seth, and I’m sure you can handle it).

    I know there are many who follow Alan and those in that little band since foetry.com appeared in 2004, but most are lurkers.

    I don’t know Seth in person at all, and I think I said really all that Brenda said in one word when I called Seth “pedantic.” Part of me hates pedantry, part of me is amused by it, and part of me actually likes it. Brenda, like a lot of people, might just have less patience for it, and that’s fine; that’s a genuine response, especially if she feels the world’s a messed-up place that needs fixing, and we can’t waste our time on: ‘Here’s what I, who went to Iowa, have to say about poetry… blah blah blah.’ Brenda’s feelings are no doubt genuine.

    I want to respond only to this by Brenda:

    “you guys probably need to get out more and see how the world suffers and seethes beyond the spectacular insularity of the poetry worlds”

    which is well said, and what I have to say in response might sound helplessly pedantic, but here goes:

    Yes, Brenda,

    however (long throat clearing)

    I do think that those who say ‘the world is so big and mean and the poetry world is so meaningless by comparison’ miss a very important point: escaping the ‘big mean world’ is how most of us mentally survive…there’s nothing wrong with ignoring or escaping from the ‘big, mean world’ for the ‘big mean world’ cannot be experienced in its totality ever, by anyone…one part of the big mean world is ALWAYS ignoring another part of it…

    So this whole objection, as deeply sincere as it might be, is really built on sand…it has nothing to do with how ‘aware’ you are, to say, ‘well I’m in touch with the big mean world and you are not,’ not because the whole question of good and evil does not exist or ‘aware’ v. ‘head-in-the-sand’ does not exist, but because the parts do not know the whole…that’s the ultimate arrogance, to think you can know the whole, that’s the ultimate pedantry, even though, what a noble quest…to know the whole…the ‘big mean world’ or the ‘world out there’ or the ‘real world’ are just finally phrases… and doing a very, very small part well (even if it’s poetry) is all any of us can do, finally…now, that does NOT mean we should be smug or complacent…well, what the hell…even that’s allowed…

    Tom

  18. The Noochie-Coochie Man said,

    July 24, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    One ventures out into the big mean world
    Each day when at work one must be.
    But too much time spent in the big mean world
    Will give that one PTSD.

  19. Seth said,

    July 24, 2010 at 4:08 pm

    Tom,

    Not looking to fight with you, and I know you were just making a rhetorical point, but I want to say — feel like I have to say — that it has never been my practice, ever, to somehow use the fact that I attended a certain school to “pull rank” on anyone. In a recent post directed to Ron Silliman — literally addressed to him in its title — I wryly yet implicitly commented on the post-avant’s obsession with classicalist mastery and non-institutional credentialing (despite abhoring all institutional credentialing) by presenting my bona fides for discoursing with post-avants. I said I had a terminal degree in the field of poetry — I did _not_ say from where. The fact that in five years I’ve never even _considered_ that having an art-school degree at a school where you don’t even get grades would be something that would qualify me to discuss poetry above and beyond others’ abilities would have, I’d hoped, made that facetiousness obvious. Clearly not. But I’ll be clear, then: I judge ideas by what seems to me as their rightness. When I was an attorney, I worked with lawyers from probably 75 different law schools and it never occurred to me to think about which ones which folks went to when they were talking law. Either what they said was right (to my mind), or not. Same deal with poetry. I could care less where someone got an MFA — or _whether_ someone has an MFA — in determining what I think of what they’ve said.

    That said, on a separate note, there are of course situations where expertise matters. I’d trust a lawyer’s opinion on the law much more than I would a non-lawyer’s — a little bit like anyone who’s ever sought the services of a lawyer (by definition) would. And I’d probably trust any poet’s opinion on the history of poetry domestically and internationally more than I would a novelist (say) who doesn’t read much or any poetry. But even then, the final accounting is who’s said an accurate thing and who hasn’t. Some day, when I’ve written a dissertation on ______________, I’ll probably consider myself to know more about that subject than most. Not because I’d have a Ph.D. then — but because I’d know I did more research than others. Same with being an “expert” on MFA programs (a designation Tom Kealey first assigned me; it was not originally a self-designation) — there’s nothing whatsoever inherent in me that makes me more likely to be an expert in the area, it’s a question of whether I’ve done more research than others. And until I run across evidence to the contrary it appears that I have. But as to wading into a conversation and saying, “I, who went to Iowa, believe X and Y about poetry…” No. Eleven times no. Iowa comes up in my discourse almost exclusively when a) people are attacking it in ways that I know are not based in fact, or b) applicants are asking me questions about it because they want more information. If I’d gone to, say, Chicago State I’d bring up my alma mater under exactly the same circumstances.

    My pedantry is most often found in stating things I _believe_ to be true as though I _know_ they are true — because often the feeling of belief and the feeling of knowledge are very close kin for me. That is, among many other things, is a major failing of mine.

    S.

  20. Seth said,

    July 24, 2010 at 4:11 pm

    [NB: Sorry, I was unclear — I was saying that the _post-avants_ “abhor” all institutional credentialing; obviously it wouldn’t be accurate to say that I do as well, or I never would’ve attended college or graduate school at all].

  21. thomasbrady said,

    July 24, 2010 at 5:01 pm

    Seth,

    At first, I was puzzled: I thought you were arguing with me about what Brenda said, and then I finally realized you were latching onto to this that I wrote “Here’s what I, who went to Iowa, have to say about poetry, blah blah blah” and so it perhaps seemed to you from that, that I was agreeing with Brenda that you invoke your creds too much.

    You may as well concede that point to Brenda, Seth. You do go on about creds quite a bit, and you mention lawyers and that you were a lawyer all the time, but I know you’re not doing it to be a jerk—there I disagree with Brenda, though I can’t speak for her and her experience, obviously, but what I do think is going on is that your rhetoric does get tangled up in itself, quite innocently, I’ll say, BECAUSE you have been labeled an “MFA expert” and all these factors: your personal credentials, your assessment of credentials generally, and your desire to appear credentialed enough to speak on credentials and credentials’ impact on non-credentialed and credentialed existence HAS caught you up in a self-referencing, self-justifying maze, from which your ‘real self’ would love to escape…but to ‘escape,’ you keep repeating the self-justifying rhetoric—and it makes it worse.

    Frankly, it sounds to me like you need to take a long, restful vacation, STOP justifying and explaining yourself…STOP explaining the obvious, ‘a lawyer is better able to explain the law…’ …you need to chill, if I can say it in the simplest and most barbaric terms possible and with all sincerity…Brenda may actually be trying to help you…a part of her probably is thinking of you in the best possible way…don’t stop talking about poetry…but you need to relax and forget about your image

    Tom

  22. Seth said,

    July 24, 2010 at 11:43 pm

    Tom,

    I don’t know about the particulars — I do worry about my image, but not quite in the way you may be suggesting (I don’t care about “respect” so much as having people understand my motivations and values, whatever they may think of them) — but hey, on the larger point, I think you’re absolutely right. I do need to chill. I stopped regular blogging back in November 2009 and really shouldn’t have waded into the Silliman thing — I was happier not blogging at all. In any case, thanks — you’ve offered good advice (which, again, is just stating the obvious!).

    Take care–
    S.

  23. thomasbrady said,

    July 25, 2010 at 2:39 am

    The interactive self-publishing phenomenon known as blogging is not for the faint of heart…it’s a test of human nature…can uncensored opinion in a give-and-take atmosphere work? I love it, but I know very few people can slug it out every day…You have to find a way to re-charge your psychic batteries…I do it with physical exercise and when I go to parties I usually end up playing and talking with the kids who are there, rather than having involved conversations with the grownups…blogging is where I hash it out with ‘grownups,’ in life I’m hardly serious at all…one’s blogging personality is just a part of who they are, or that’s the way I see it…but some people feel like their whole selves are vulnerable… I’m sure I’ll see you around, Seth, thanks for making things interesting…

  24. Marcus Bales said,

    July 25, 2010 at 11:25 am

    Seth,

    I’m sorry to say the first time I’d heard of you was here on Scarriet a few weeks ago, but the more I read of what you say here (if it is representative of how you present yourself elsewhere) the more I want to say to you: “Hey, cowboy up — no one is ever going to understand you and your motivations in the terms you understand them, so stop talking about you and your motivations and talk more about what you think and believe. Nobody likes a whiner.”

  25. Franz Bonkers Words said,

    July 27, 2010 at 1:49 pm

    ‘Brenda’ could be anyone. It could be me, Franz Bonkers, pretending to be Brenda, and until s/he proves her bona fides, I would take what s/he says with a pinch of salt Seth.

    It wasn’t me, but the point I’m making is that there’s all sorts of anonymity online and unless someone’s prepared to stand up and say who they are (I am Desmond Swords), then they could be just disgruntled talentless pple who attended a workshop with you and be trying to make out it is you and not them the ‘horrid’ person.

    On the Guardian books blog poem of thhe week, I know only four or five real people, all poets, and the rest anonymous doggerelists all in agreement the poetry world owes ’em a favor, and slagging off the big names bcuz the big names aint their own, and the truly sad thing is, these tossers have pathetic names/handles, obviously made up and even tho I’ve known ’em three years, the last thing they will do is reveal who they really are, which suggests they are w waste of time taking seriously.

    At least you have the balls to be yourself and not ‘Dave’ or Bridget’ or Brenda.

  26. thomasbrady said,

    July 27, 2010 at 3:55 pm

    “real people”

    “slagging off the big names”

    “these tossers have pathetic names/handles”

    “who they really are”

    “the balls to be yourself”

    ^^
    The truth revealed!

  27. horatiox said,

    July 27, 2010 at 6:48 pm

    Silliman & Co are to Poe and Hawthorne as like ….kazoos are to Count Scriabin…

    anyway Poe addressed Hawthorne’s prose. The quietude he alludes to (actually critically) has little or nothing to do with the, oh, “quietude” of some hepcat’s insta-haiku concerning the proverbial fog comin’ over North beach…but more along the lines of..sublimity– Poe does not really approve of quietude (is the Masque of the Red death, or the usual Poe goth klassics to be read merely as …quietude? Hah! ). He wants originality, not merely repose.

    In short Poe respects Hawthorne’s belle-lettrist hack-ness (as even the jazzy intro to The Scarlet A- demonstrates), but not H’s…vision, which one might say had a certain…bourgeois, superficial aspect–Hawthorne was not so far from being the Danielle Steele of 1840. Melville sort of upped the ante, in both literary and…metaphysical terms (and offers a rather different perspective than that of EAP’s dungeons…however exquisitely they are rendered) .

  28. Anonymous said,

    July 27, 2010 at 9:03 pm

    horatiox,

    Funny you should mention Hawthorne and Danielle Steele, for it was Hawthorne who sought to distance himself from, in Hawthorne’s words, “the horde of scribbling women,” as 19th century literature grew to be dominated by women, and then Henry James, and finally, in our day, the Oprah Book Club. I prefer Hawthorne to Melville, especially Hawthorne’s shorter works (he turned to novels later) which are really quite clever and thought-provoking.

    But you may have hit upon just the right word: “Sublimity” —that, I think, is what we’re looking for here: the true opposite of “Quietude.” Poe, of course, was more than “dungeons…” he was also stars…see “Eureka,” Olbers’ paradox, etc and Allied WW II code-breaking (Poe winning the war against Pound).

    I see Modernism as ‘quietude,’ The Wasteland, the Red Wheelbarrow…zzzzzz

    Tom

    • horatiox said,

      July 27, 2010 at 10:23 pm

      lit-pro I’m not but would agree that 19th century literary product, even Hawthorne’s hackwork, Poe’s cryptography, or Melville’s preacherly saxon, out-ranks, and out-sublimes the Red Wheelbarrow minimalist school, or TSEliot’s pompous epistles (and most of Pound), and the quietude jive (really a mash up of proustian decoration meets zen-for- ‘Merican suburbanites).

      politically speaking, howevr, Hawthorne was a yankee, even a Tory of sorts, and the descendant of…. Oppressors, judges, puritans, etc. He’d probably have befriended a TS Eliot…or maybe they chat in…purgatory (or is it a zone rather …mo’ infernal).

      Hawthorne probably wasnt as close to the Emersonian gang–abolitionists– as EAP thought…and is EAP, however bizarrely elegant perhaps…showing a bit of disdain for the yankee-puritan north? Not such a bad thing…but Hawthorne was not an abolitionist (and EAP dead, or murdered before the phun of CW began), at least as Emerson was (was he?).

      Americana crackerbarrel probably bores or offends the scarriets but…Hawthorne applauded the hanging of John Brown for one (RE Lee, supervising, assisted by Jeb Stuart). Mugwump, at least. Even Melville (recall the multicultural visions of the Pequod…his Rousseauian Queequeg, etc rather beyond some haiku quietism) probably was not too sympathetic to dixie states rights types, but who rilly knows.

      • thomasbrady said,

        July 28, 2010 at 2:10 am

        horatiox,

        now you’re talkin’ my talk…Hawthorne’s Salem was ruined as a great port city thanks to president Jefferson’s embargo; rather than fight the British pirates, Jefferson, sans navy, caved. This was at a time when Britain barely recognized the U.S. and with the War of 1812 still to come, an extension of the Revolutionary War, really. Emerson was Jeffersonian, Poe, Hamiltonian. Poe is falsely labeled a ‘Southerner’ in a sneering, pejorative manner, when most of his career was spent in the North; Poe’s politics are pretty simple: he was a patriot; which wasn’t a bad thing to be in those days, when the British Empire was at large. It got worse for the U.S. when Napolean III of France became allies with Britain; Horace Greeley of the NY Tribune, who published Griswold’s “Ludwig” hit-piece hours after Poe’s murder attempted to negotiate a Civil War peace in 1862 with France, (I’m not making this up) which would have made the Confederacy victorious; Greeley later ran for president in ’68 and lost to Grant after the war, but the treasonous Greeley carried Maryland, where Poe was murdered in ’49—in the same Baltimore neighborhood where Lincoln was almost assassinated in ’60 (Pinkerton disguised Abe as an old woman). Greeley was outwardly “progressive” but had secret business dealings with Boss Tweed. The Civil War could also be said to be an extension of the American Revolutionary War as Britain (and now France, too!) hoped the U.S. would be broken in two. Only after the U.S. survived the Civil War were they finally able to kick Napolean III out of Mexico. Emerson was pro-British; that’s why Poe and Emerson hated each other—the backdrop was geopolitical. Emerson was the literary agent in the U.S for the fascist Thomas Carlyle, a kind of 19th century Pound; Emerson’s ‘new’ England became TS Eliot’s England—TS Eliot, from a Unitarian NE family that knew Emerson, is the Sage of Concord’s literary grandchild; Henry James Sr. knew Emerson and his son, an expat like Eliot; both attacked Poe for being “immature.” Hawthorne? He ended up a sad old man in Liverpool. Why, just look at that photo. He was only 59 when he died, but in that photo he looks much older. I bet he knew some secrets about Poe, Emerson, England, and his own land, still in the middle of the Civil War holocaust when Hawthorne breathed his last.

        Tom

  29. horatiox said,

    July 28, 2010 at 5:05 am

    Interesting–tho’ I didn’t mean to sneer at Poe, who was one of the first students at the University of Virginia was he not–yet then got in West Point. And yes a patriot, but probably not completely opposed to Jeffersonian ideals (for better and worse). But Poe has an ancien regime aspect as well, perhaps (like that grand tale Hop-frog).

    You are also probably correct that Hawthorne at least detested Jefferson, and…really the whigs, John Locke, etc. AND most likely opposed both French and American revolutions–the Major Molineaux tale, for one, seems to show nothing but scorn for the Citizen. As far as the classifications go, I’d rate Haw. as closer to Hamiltonian and/or federalist views–yet the conservative federalists were not completely unified in opposition to slavery, tho’ Madison hardly as guilty as Jefferson and his cronies in that regard. Hawthorne was a sad character, even seems a bit of a skeptic in some tales (like Molineaux), tho’ not to full-on Hume-like views (or is it). I believe that skepticism extended to…democracy itself, and that was my point–or conjecture– re Eliot’s royalist views being slightly similar to Hawthorne’s political views , tho’ I don’t think Hawthorne was exactly the …egghead intellectual sort (tho Poe perhaps …was). Haw. has a certain psychological insight, but….a bit of a dilettante.

    and didn’t TSE and EP both dismiss Emerson and Co ? I believe they did. Yet Pound was anti-royalist–unlike his one time crony Eliot– and somewhat republican, in the euro sense. Blackshirts were fairly nasty creatures but not quite “fascists” as in…..nazi or skinhead sort.

    Not sure how this ties into quietism. But I don’t think any of them were quietists. Well, perhaps someone like Thoreau was, or a type of proto-hippie-luddite. But a twisted, lonely soul, not the literary visionaries that Poe or Hawthorne were. Indeed I read Poe’s piece on Hawthorne as opposing any and all quietisms or “reflectionism” as phony. Like Pynchon to some degree (tho with a larger helping of the…macabre) Poe nearly seems to attain CP Snow’s ideal of bridging the Two Cultures (science and literature) …Snow’s a bit quaint or stuffy, but …the point still seems relevant.

  30. horatiox said,

    July 28, 2010 at 5:46 am

    Which is to say, much literary politics comes down to whether Scribe X clapped (whether literally, or symbolically) when the sans cullottes rolled out the guillotine for Louis XVI, or not. (that’s not to say approving of all the phunn of FR, the Terror, etc). And I am convinced Hawthorne was adamantly opposed to that (as was TS Eliot). As were most yankees. Tho’…Tom Jefferson approved. Melville. ….Did Poe? I think so. As did Ezra Pound a few decades later (or, at least anti-monarchist in principle). And that tradition stems not from judeo-monotheism or christianity (tho’…even early on some church father opposed the so-called divine right of kings)–or from mystic-quietists andor quasi-buddhists– but from greek filosophes and the Roman republic.

  31. thomasbrady said,

    July 28, 2010 at 2:00 pm

    horatiox,

    The Eliot-Pound-WC Williams Modernist axis (which also included people like Ford Madox Ford and John Crowe Ransom and Yeats) heaped a lot of scorn on Poe (Shelley, Byron, even Keats) but you are right to point out that Emerson wasn’t exactly their hero, either, though Whitman-Emerson eventually trounces Poe in a slightly different arena a little later in the 20th century, and Emerson is a big influence on Nietzsche and guys like Benjamin and Adorno and that sort of thinking, the authentic ‘wilderness,’ the ‘fossil-poetry,’ but this is the sort of over-intellectual thinking, which Poe, the scientist-artist never trusted. Whitman is Emerson’s prose broken into lines, and Ginsberg is Emerson broken into lines…I think the fascist Futurism wing of Modernism couldn’t abide the humble Thoreau aspect of Emerson, but once World War Two blew over and the ‘good guys’ led by Poe’s code-breaking expertise beat the ‘bad guys,’ the game has to be re-arranged a little bit, but an interesting thing happened: Whitman, Emerson and Pound were reconciled, even Eliot and WC Williams were reconciled as ‘make it new’ Modernism, which, one has to remember, was now curricula in the colleges, flooded with GI Bill students. Whitman was…new. Pound was…new. Eliot was…new. Williams was…new. Poe and Shelley and Byron and Hawthorne were…old. Goodbye! Sounds stupid, but that’s what happened in Letters. Incredible, isn’t it? Whitman and WC Williams were exciting? And Byron and Poe were boring? How did that happen? In the schools, it did.

    Tom

  32. horatiox said,

    July 28, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    Yes, you seem correct insofar that the naturalist sludge of Whitman and Emerson replaced the apollonian splendors of PB Shelley and EAPoe. Yet….at least Pound did not completely detest Shelley (or Byron). He respected the boy’s vision–at times, at least when vaguely…hellenic — but thought his…revolutionary urges a bit naive, probably

    Shelley approves of the jacobins, does he not. He’s no quietist (and a proto-polymath). Marx quotes him approvingly later on. So I don’t think we could easily could lump together a PBS with a Hawthorne (no jacobin), or even EAPoe, though PBS and EAP are perhaps ideological cousins (tho’ EAP has a bit of a ….Dantean spook vibe….Shelley proclaimed hisself A-theos in Chamonix,….rightly or rongly. But you are correct the lit-mavens have pretty much offed the Anglo romantic vision of Shelley [tho…a few beatniks did bring up Shelley….thankfully, instead of Whitman’s basura] or trivialized it, subsumed it under the marxism, or the repressed whitey,etc.

    Ambrose Bierce ridiculed Whitman. And Bierce said of Wilde, “this he-hen thinks he can soar with eagles” (such as Poe, the romantics, etc.) That still describes most of the modernists and beats as well (quiet or not, he-hen, or just hen) .

  33. horatiox said,

    July 28, 2010 at 4:30 pm

    Also Im not, to wax ethical for a few nanoseconds, entirely convinced on your point re Poe as model for the good-guy/Allied cryptographer (ala Enigma, I believe). Nazis were, granted, bad guys– yet…so was Winnie Churchill, really (not to say stalinists). WC praised Hitler and Il Duce until the panzers rolled into Poland more or less. Pound’s not a “good guy” in your sense, but…he did at one point out Hitler’s madness. Did the blackshirts know what the nazis were up to? Not sure.
    Initially the italians did not want to join the Wehrmacht. They probably knew of some atrocities in 30s, but the camps weren’t really roaring until the war started. So Im tempted to think Pound did not really know of the final solution until later, after the war. Perhaps he did not express sufficient outrage (and he gave the old blackshirt Hail Caesar immediately upon release…). Or maybe he was mad. But Pound was not partying with the Waffen SS (as say Heidegger…or LF Celine was)–. And for that matter the code crackers (led by that odd man Turing) did have some connections to stalinists, reportedly. Read a bit of the last days of the 3rd Reich– Zhukov and his army seem at least as ghoulish as the nazis (tho…with some reason of course…nazis killed far more russians than jews,poles or slavs)

    Ergo, I think we can read the Cantos w/o guilt , and I don’t think his writing really fits in with all the usual American scribes (for one, he’s a classicist of sorts, also very interested in economics, the arts). His hellish visions of western history (and…usury) have little or nothing to do with red wheelbarrows , or mystic meadows (or the heroin-haikus and syphillis school of bleatnix for that matter). Pound’s visions in the Cantos (quite different than his earlier imagistic…or chinese pieces) often look a bit like…Bosch, to me.

  34. thomasbrady said,

    July 28, 2010 at 6:00 pm

    Of course you’re right: Churchill and Stalin were not ‘good guys.’

    Mussolini invaded Africa in 1935, using chemical weapons, trampling on the League of Nations’ Article X and setting the stage for horrors to come. Pound was fairly tight with El Duce. But that doesn’t mean I want to ban Pound’s works or reject all his ideas. If you want to read some of the ‘Cantos’ on Scarriet; I’d love to do that.

    Yea, the Nazis killed a lot of Russians; both Eliot and Pound make disparaging remarks against Russians in their early Criticism–I’m thinking in particular of two prominent passages which I’ll find when I get a chance. The Cantos may have interesting isolated things to say. Pound’s literary theory has some sane things, but his literary history is just crazy.


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